Having worked with the european 1Mb Pronto for about 3 months, I have finished my ccf enough to upload it shortly to the RC files section. I have some suggestions for the Philips Pronto firmware and ProntoEdit designers. I don't know how to contact them, so I am posting my suggestions here. If anybody knows how to contact them, please let me know.

Here are my suggestions:
- The "Macro" and "Device" distinction is not a useful abstraction when designing for the Pronto with a software package. This abstraction is too technical for a task based user interface. When using PE, one should be able to remove this distinction from the user interface. It also would free up more screen real estate.

- The notion that hard key definitions are bound to a DEVICE is too restrictive. I found numerous occasions where I wanted to bind these definitions to just a PANEL. Many people including myself use many equally named "Devices" to circumvent this, which is very ugly. It renders the standard Device menu useless if you have 40 Radio "devices" for each preset like me. The hard key override abstraction from Home to Device is a fine model that can be extended downward the hierarchy to panels as well.

- The Home icon should be programmable, depending on the location from which Home is pressed. I sometimes want execute an action list when jumping to home from a specific panel. Now I have to workaround this by greying out the home icon, and using a precious hard key for jumping "Home".

- Please implement a "Back" function! This should be so simple to implement! Everybody using a Pronto for the first time is amazed that it isn't present.

- Please implement some form of state (Like storing booleans or integers in named veriables) and some form of if-then-else logic. This will:
1) alleviate the need for discrete codes (toggles can be used more effectively because actual state is known)
2) alleviate the need for workarounds like unnecessary copies of devices/panels to implement a state.

- Please implement radio buttons, i.e. buttons that stay visibly pressed once touched, and releases all other radio buttons in the same radio button frame. The mere fact that they are called radio buttons indicates that they are a good design abstraction for a remote controlling a radio or a TV.

- Remove the tetris easter egg, and make it optional for PE users, if this would free up memory.

- PE: button aliasing should be entered by pointing to other buttons in a displayed panel. Selecting from a table is not very user-friendly, only necessary for e.g. invisible buttons.

- PE: I would like to align one button to another, horizontally or vertically. Grids are too cumbersome for this simple task.

- PE: a grid should be automatically stored (wherever) with the panel it is applied to, so you can later edit a panel with the same grid, without having to reverse engineer the grid from the panel layout.

- PE: the IR-database from the 2Mb+ models should be made available in PE, so 1Mb users can use parts of it as well.

Comments are welcome!

Maarten ([email protected])

Maarten you are several years too late. The 1 meg Pronto has been discontinued for several years, and the 2 meg Pronto is at the end of its run (not being produced any more, the north American model has already been discontinued and replaced, while in Europe it will be done soon)

The New Pronto answers a lot of your demands (no macro/device, no home icon, back function)

also

grids can be saved (not by panel, but you have 10 of them), if they were part of the panel information, then they would be downloadable to the remote and they would take up space


for every button you have the position properties, you can easily align them using that


cannot, the DB does not belong to them, they are paying for licenses, the owners of the DB does not want their work and what they are getting paid for to be lost, that is why the DB is implemented that way

you could also create "radio button" panels with pressed & un-pressed graphics. yes it would take many panels, but it would be do-able.

Newbie question here: Are there any tools out there to program a totally new firmware for the pronto 2000?

It would be nice if the new program could accept simple scripts so that regular people could then programs things like:

(1) Learn a device instead of a button. From one learned code from a button (or maybe a couple) the program could then make educated guesses about the device (which code goes with which command) which could then be checked on a test panel that spans the entire list of codes. This would be great for finding discretes. Once the simple test panel was checked a layout is then generated.

I mean really, if I tell the remote what 1 and 2 are, a slick program could figure out the rest of the numbers for most ir codes. Since some arrangements might be standard, educated guesses might not be horribly hard to program.

(2) Learning signals with a few tries for confirmation, just like Tonto does, but on the remote itself.

Okay, maybe this was just a flimsy excuse to post my wishlist, but it would be nice....

The Pronto (2000, I haven't seen the 3000 yet so I can't speak on that) remote is good, but seems to be a great example of technology that has a lot of potential and could be spectacular, but the powers that be chose to stop short of making something extraordinary.

Or maybe it's just my insatiable hunger for cooler and cooler toys.

Just a thought,

David

(1) Was done years ago in sofwtare provided by users ot this site and exists in the Utilities area - see IR Tool , Pronto Util, IR Panels

I've downloaded and used a few of these programs. They have the elements of what I'm talking about, but in scattered parts and as pc applications and some without gui interfaces (not that it's the end of the world to run a DOS application).

I'm not putting them down, personally it's been many moons since I've written anything beyond a couple hundred lines of code, and usually for Unix machines, but in the grand scheme of things they are a good work in progress.

The impossible dream I'm getting at is to have these function on the remote as a stand alone; no pc required.

Imagine if the remote (on it's own) could reliably learn a code from another remote and be able to idenitfy the scheme for most manufacturers (for the rest be able to infer the ir scheme if given a few examples).

After that it could then attempt to extrapolate a best guess for the rest of the codes which could then be checked by the user. Buttons that were missed could then either be learned from the original remote or verified on a numbered panel with all the possible codes laid out.

Simple questions, like does your tv have picture in picture or does the button turn the device both on and off could follow.

Device panels could then be automatically constructed (again some guesses would be involved) with all the buttons pointing to the codes on the list rather than stored individually.

With this sort of program, even the odd-ball devices could be good to go within minutes.

I'm sure this is way beyond wishful thinking, but whatever, just my two cents.

David

I have a design for functionality like this in Tonto. It's not close to being ready, but it's been contemplated.

I'm afraid to say that my $15 OneForALL 6012 remote is now functionally superior to my original Pronto.

Why? Creative people have reverse engineered it and related OFA remotes by soldering a cable connection to them and connecting them to a computer. Once they figured out what processor/memory was used in these remotes, new programming was developed that can be uploaded to the remote to outflank the original "operating system". I was able to add an 8k eeprom chip ($3) to my 6012 and create the capacity to handle every electronic device in my house. The original remote was limited to 6 devices.

Even better, the "software" creates toggle bits you can use to manage the "state" of your devices. I mainly use them to track the ON/OFF status of the equipment I own with only a single POWER toggle. But they can be used to track any toggling function's state. With this I have system macros that start up all the equipment I need to watch a given source, and turn OFF any unneeded equipment that might be ON.

And although these cheap remotes have built-in device codes for most devices, many times a working code will not completely control all functions of your device. With the computer connection, you can create custom mapped upgrades that put every function you need on exactly the button you want it to be on. These upgrades get uploaded to the remote, and from then on that device map is available.

And remote configurations can be edited as easily as you edit your Pronto configurations. Libraries of device upgrades are available, thanks to the software being able to create a text file that can be shared over the internet. You can find instructions on how to make your OWN cable and do your own upgrades, or buy a remote already upgrades with a cable included.

My Pronto was bought to give my wife a graphical way to control our complicated Home Theater. It still does that, and very well. But with no toggle bits, and little in the way of end user created custom hardware-level reprogramming (NOT CCF creation) happening, my Pronto is getting left in the dust. My $15 remote "knows" if my GoVideo VCR is ON or OFF. My Pronto doesn't.

DBrown

I think my brain ust broke......

D.... Not only was that a Long dead post about a Discountinued remote that is certainly never going to see any of those suggestions, your responce had absolutly nothing to do with the original topic of the post.....


WHY?

This can be done through programming on the Pronto as well, but to be realistic, it's only necessary when discrete codes are unavailable.


This is not quite accurate. Your $15 remote THINKS it knows the power state of your VCR. It works so long as nobody walks in front of you when you hit the button, as long as the VCR doesn't miss the signal, or as long as the battery isn't just a little too weak for the VCR to catch the transmission. What you describe is only possible through two way communication between the remote and the equipment. Neither the Pronto, nor your remote have this capability.

I can certainly appreciate that maybe you want a cheap remote or perhaps you don't like a touchscreen, but functionally superior - only if you did a poor job of programming the Pronto.

Like Impaqt, I'm not sure what your point is. If you want complete control over your equipment at minimal cost - get a long stick capable of reaching your equipment rack from your sitting position or get up and go press the button yourself. Either of these methods will be both cheaper and more reliable in controlling your gear than either your OneForAll or a Pronto. Does that constitute functionally superior??

Jim L

1) The original message still relates well to gripes I have about my Pronto. Since that 1st post, nothing really seems to have happened to answer his desire to see the Pronto improved. I agree. The Pronto WAS improved, but via wholey new models. My OLD Pronto still lives, and performs amazingly well, so there has yet to be a reason for me to buy another very expensive Pronto. I DO want that ability to toggle states, but don't need an expensive Pronto when I can have them in a $15 OneForAll.

2) Long dead post, but since my 1999 Pronto is still in use as is my 1999 one-for-all, time is irrelivent. BTW, this post is no longer dead.

Really? Please explain how. I need to track the state of ON or OFF in an old GoVideo VCR and a new APEX DVD player. There is NO work-around via PLAY or OPEN to establish the state with these devices. They only turn ON with a POWER toggle, and only turn OFF with that same POWER toggle.


Guess what? I have Discrete codes for all my equipment EXCEPT that GoVideo VCR and APEX DVD. I'd call that realistic.


True. But since I know this, I also have a way to adjust the POWER state when the remote gets out-of-sync. Which, given the amazing IR strength of my little Cinema7 remote, is very rare. This remote is just as likely to turn on my equipement when pointing the opposite direction as it is pointing straight at my equipment.

Not true. Discrete codes for ON/OFF, INPUTS, etc., let me reliably control "most" of my equipment. When a device misses a signal, I simply send the macro again. Nothing ever gets "out of Sync" because state is handled at each device. There is no NEED in this situation for two-way communication. But I'll agree that having a two-way handshake between equipment and remote would be ideal. Maybe next year.

Nope. I've been programming both almost continually since 1999, trying to use exactly the same strategy, "layout", button names, and logic. But with continued development by OFA user, tracking ON/OFF state has become easy in my old OFA remote. It's still impossible (until proven otherwise) in my old Pronto. And that's a shame.

Hmmm... A little touchy you seem. Unfortunately many of my devices don't have buttons for "stick control" anymore. The remote is the only path into them.

Cost isn't the point. After all, I have both my (then) $300 Pronto and my (then and still) $15 OFA. But if the OFA hadn't been so cheap perhaps all the enthusiasts who worked so hard to hack and improve them wouldn't have materialized.

Yep. It's a shame, though. Those old Pronto's certainly had more potential.

DBrown

I have a VCR that operates in the same way, no workarounds. In programming the Pronto, I have a "jump" button on each page of every device in my ccf. The jump button puts the equipment in a known state. In my case this is TV and Receiver on, and switched to watch regular television.

If, at initial system turn on, I want to use the VCR, I select it, the macro containing the power toggle is sent and the unit is on. If I want to now watch a DVD, I hit the jump button. The macro that's sent again sends a power toggle to the VCR and I'm taken to a page which allows me to select what I want to next, watch a DVD in this case.

You may or may not like the approach, but I don't understand why this is any different than your situation. If I'm in the VCR device my Marantz THINKS the VCR is on, when I jump, the remote THINKS it's off. The only time it gets out of sync is under the same conditions as would be true of your remote. If it DOES get out of sync, I just go the power page and adjust the state. It's very reliable, and I can't remember a time when it got out of sync. If you're doing navigation via the Device/Macro menus, this this method wouldn't work since there is no way to send a command to the VCR when EXITING a device via the Device menu.


Didn't mean to be. Guess I didn't understand what the point of your post was. Both remotes can be programmed to THINK they know what the power state is. Your OFA uses a toggle bit, mine "remembers" by knowing what device it's currently in. Although (without 2-way communication) neither remote knows for sure, both methods are reliable. Should either remote be mistaken, resetting the state is easy. I don't see how either method represents "functionally superior".


If cost isn't the point, then what is? Both have the same capability to "remember" states. I think it's great that the enthusiasts have hacked the remote to make it more capable. It's interesting, and fun as well.


Yes they do, depending on how they're programmed.

Jim L

there are several ways. To start, without a discrete code, you need the power toggle to resynch (like you yourself admitted)


so here are a few solutions

1) send the power command when you press VCR, let's face it most of the times it will be needed. If you also turn it off when you finish VCR, then no problem

2) use several extra panels, if the VCR should be on then you are in the VCR should be on panels and if not then the other ones.

Thanks, Jim and Anthony.

The JUMP button idea 'might' be a trick I could use on the pronto. But it's the wife's interface with the home theater, so changing anything drastically has to be done with care and her approval. Right now my discrete logic plays out when selecting something to watch. We don't "jump" out of the device, but simply tab to the macro side and choose a new activity. Then when a new activity is selected, all the needed equipment is turned ON, and everything else is turned OFF, discretely. With everything having discrete ON and OFF codes this works perfectly. Nothing is turned OFF if it is just going to be turned ON again. TV and RCVR, for example, are almost always ON. But the RCVR gets changed to a new input depending on what action I've chosen. My logic requires some way to keep track of devices without discretes. At this point I just try an remember to turn them OFF before tabbing back to my activity macros.

I put X10 lighting on the HOME tab. And of course the DEVICES tab will retain whatever the last device selected was.

Your logic seems to be: If you are looking at a VCR panel, you must have turned the VCR ON. But to leave that panel, you hit JUMP, which turns the VCR OFF and takes you to your activity panel. So if you are looking at the activity panel, nothing yet is ON. For every ON there is an OFF when you jump back to the activity panel.

Now I'd have to pull the TV and RCVR out, making them turn ON before getting to the activity panel. No reason to turn these ON and OFF between selections. Each activity selection would also then switch the TV and the RCVR to the proper input. My activity Panel would then have it's own JUMP, serving as an ALL OFF, and turning OFF the TV and RCVR.

Like this:

BEGIN PANEL: Everything is OFF
Select MUSIC
- turns ON RCVR
- changes to MUSIC activities PANEL
- - Select CD
- - - Turns RCVR to CD input
- - - Turns CD changer ON
- - - Changes to CD Control Panel
- - JUMP back: Turns CD OFF
- - Select AM/FM Radio
- - - Turns RCVR to RADIO source
- - - Changes to Radio Control Panel
- - JUMP back: RCVR stays ON
- - Select Phono/Tape
- - - Turns RVCR to PHONO/Tape source
- - - Turns PHONO/Tape ON
- - - Changes to Phono/Tape Panel
- - JUMP back : Turn PHONO/Tape OFF
- JUMP back to BEGIN Panel: RCVR OFF
Select VIDEO source
- Turns ON RCVR
- Turns ON TV
- Changes to VIDEO activities PANEL
- - Select SAT
- - - Turns RVCR to SAT source
- - - Turns SAT ON
- - - Changes to SAT Control Panel
- - JUMP back : Turn SAT OFF
- - Select DVD
- - - Turns RVCR to DVD source
- - - Turns DVD ON
- - - Changes to DVD Control Panel
- - JUMP back : Turn DVD OFF
- - Select VCR1
- - - Turns RVCR to VCR1 source
- - - Turns SAT ON
- - - Changes to VCR1 Control Panel
- - JUMP back : Turn VCR1 OFF
- - Select VCR2
- - - Turns RVCR to VCR2 source
- - - Turns VCR2 ON
- - - Changes to VCR2 Control Panel
- - JUMP back : Turn VCR2 OFF
- JUMP back to BEGIN Panel: RCVR & TV OFF
BEGIN PANEL: Everything is OFF

VERY IMPRESSIVE!

Of course X10 LIGHTS has to be available from all panels at each level. Not too hard. NO status needs tracking. Step over, step back.

VCR1 can RECORD other sources, so it's controls need to be accessed from other video device control panels. JUMPing OVER to VCR from SAT, for example, I may want the VCR turned ON, but not turned OFF when jumping back to the SAT controls. Tough logic here. VCR1 ON/OFF state still needs to be tracked so that JUMPING down to BEGIN level will have it OFF.

So I agree that an effective status logic CAN be created with Pronto Panels. That last VCR1 need isn't quite accounted for, but with some thought I might figure it out.

But since I have toggle states on my OneForALL it EASILY handles the above stepped logic. It also handles the VCR access, and leaves me assured that everything is OFF at the end of the night. I hit the REC button while in SAT, DVD, or TV, and it runs a macro that:
- Checks a REC toggle bit. If 0 then
- - Locks SVS-4 input to current source.
- - Turns ON VCR1, Toggles state.
- - Sets VCR to L1 input
- END IF
- Maps VCR buttons to remote.

I press REC again to start recording, and whatever the previous SAT, DVD, or TV source I am watching gets recorded. The REC toggle bit gets set to 1. If I hit STOP the REC bit gets changed back to 0. So jumping back and forth. Hitting that device button again maps the original device to the remote. Where I can jump back to VCR controls without interrupting the recording or turning the VCR OFF by pressing REC.

My OneForALL used to have 95% the functionality of the my Pronto. I JP1ed and upgraded the software in my OneForALL and made it 10% BETTER than the Pronto for logic programming. But thanks to you guys, Pronto now has earned back 5% or so. But the little OneForALL still wins, and I don't have to look at it to use it.

DBrown

Not quite, jumping to the activity panel puts your system in known state. For me, that's Receiver and TV on (everything else off) - it amounts to watching cable.


Exactly,


Yep, that's basically how I do it, except an "all off" is available on each device page. What it turns off, depends on what is currently on, it then jumps to the home page.

To be a little more specific, there is a bar across the top of the screen on each device page with 5 buttons. From left to right the buttons are: Jump, Modes (receiver and TV modes), Lights, Power and Off. Jump and Off I explained. The others jump to macro groups on the macro side, and once you're done you jump back to the device. The downside is it may require many duplicate panels to get you back to where you were, depending on your model Pronto. If your interested, look at Dale Crawford's TS-1000 ccf here: [Link: remotecentral.com]. The bar across the top. I've added a button and colorized it.


On my VCR page, hitting the record button will take you to a page that allows you to select the source. Selecting the source, turns what you need on, sets up the receiver etc. It will also jump to another page which depends on what your selection was. It might involve setting up the timer for a SAT/Cable show, a prompt to put the Laser Disk you want to record in the unit, or a prompt to load your second VCR. These pages also contain buttons for speed selection and other settings as may be required.


And I think that's an extremely impressive bit of programming. Especially, for a less than $20 remote. But, EASILY is a relative term, it may or may not, depending on programming experience, have been easier to setup. To the user, either process is equally seamless. I will agree your setup would get you recording faster. The Pronto prompts you for specific input and gives more feedback on what exactly has been setup.


Well, can't quite agee there, but I think it's just a difference in what we want in a remote. Personnally, I don't want to keep a cheat sheet around to know what each button does or where a certain macro is located because you can't label it. I'm willing to look at the screen to prevent this problem. That's not meant to be an insult, it's almost a summary of the long standing debate over hard button vs touchscreen. Every remote has it trade-offs, I enjoyed the discussion and learned a few things as well.

Jim L